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Post by Kyle West on Mar 3, 2013 13:24:39 GMT
Gave this a read a little bit ago so put down a few thoughts for you. Thanks, Trix. Considering your busy involvement with so many writers and projects, I'm very grateful to see you made time for this Ya know, I was reading through the discussion thread at MZP recently [the one about in media res], and I can honestly say I don't understand the hate. Some of my absolute favourite hours of TV, or movies, have used it as a way to open, and I love it. But to each their own! Same with voice overs really, I'm generally a lover of them simply because they are a dying concept. Though I'll admit that in VS, voice overs aren't quite as effective so I can get why some readers aren't a big fan of them. I 100% understand where you're coming from, but from my perspective, I've seen writers get ripped a new one on these sites for not explaining their world enough in pilots. I'll concede that the first episode was slightly more difficult to write simply because of the exposition that was in it compared to the later ones, but I'm content with the way in which I was able to present the information to the reader. I can promise that an episode like this won't ever need to be done again on this show though Fair, and I was half convinced that Tony was going to tear me apart for the same thing (he still might, who knows?!), but it was a style choice that I wanted to go with, ultimately. The show had a lot of slower world-building moments in its first few episodes, so I felt it crucial that we open with something that says "yeah, things are going to move a little slow, but here's something to reassure you that shit is going to hit the fan". Originally, this was designed as a two part mini-series, with a third one-off follow-up that would have come later on. The change of format, and the huge amount of plots I've now put into future planned instalments (this won't be 3 volumes by the time it ends, trust me!), have meant that I've gone for an approach that will move along slowly but hopefully be a lot more rewarding as a result. I've spent a lot of time writing shows/scripts that are in the readers face, and balls-to-wall action and revelations, so I'm enjoying the change of pace here. I quite like only giving out small amounts of information at a time But I see your point, and I think it's one that 50% of readers will share, whilst perhaps the other 50% will be thinking more about what they DID learn throughout volume one. I'm very much following a comic book format with this, in that the story is always moving, but sometimes in different directions and not always in a linear fashion. It's unlikely that I'm ever going to produce a Volume for this that asks and answers all its questions within the few episodes. I totally appreciate that such an approach could be frustrating if a reader [such as yourself] isn't wholly in love with the show though! Well, I'm glad to hear that you will hopefully be sticking around for the next instalment. I'm confident that it's going to be a good contribution to the series, if not perhaps slightly different to what people might expect considering how Volume 1 ends. It's coming along well, actually, and I'm looking at having it out in May. Thank you very much for your honest and thoughtful feedback, it's always appreciated. And as I always say, I'd much rather read a long response from someone who wasn't in love with my work, than read a bunch of one line reviews saying either "that was great!" or "that sucked!"
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Post by Kyle West on Mar 3, 2013 13:25:38 GMT
Tony, I'm going to wait until you've reviewed the whole show before I respond, I think. I'm very much enjoying your reviews though, and can't wait to see your final assessment
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Tony O'Black
Evolution Participants
Writer. Reader. Lover. Chicken, mostly.
Posts: 60
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Post by Tony O'Black on Mar 3, 2013 13:28:45 GMT
Fair play dude, should be done by the end of the week.
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Trix
New Reader
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Post by Trix on Mar 3, 2013 18:47:46 GMT
Ya know, I was reading through the discussion thread at MZP recently [the one about in media res], and I can honestly say I don't understand the hate. Some of my absolute favourite hours of TV, or movies, have used it as a way to open, and I love it. But to each their own! Same with voice overs really, I'm generally a lover of them simply because they are a dying concept. Though I'll admit that in VS, voice overs aren't quite as effective so I can get why some readers aren't a big fan of them. There are a few vocal people who don't like it but I'm sure there are also plenty that enjoy it. I've just personally found that the times it has been used in VS and on TV just haven't been engaging enough to warrant the jump back. I usually find myself in wait for the moment we've already seen. As you say though, completely personal preference and that's not the first or last time we'll say that! It really is about finding that balance between too much and too little description and information. Not a perfect science as it all depends on what story you are trying to tell. Something that once out of the way you don't have to come back to so it's not something that will be a problem again for the show. Everything is set up to an extent now so it doesn't need to be covered again. Well I'll be here in May It's not a trouble to read this even though it's not my favourite show just because it is a group of webisodes so quicker to get through. I think sometimes I do have to remember that with the webisode format things can be a lot more fluid and it's easier to produce a show that can jump around in terms of times and stories.
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Tony O'Black
Evolution Participants
Writer. Reader. Lover. Chicken, mostly.
Posts: 60
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Post by Tony O'Black on Mar 3, 2013 20:25:10 GMT
1x04 - Eyes Off
I have to be honest, I didn’t much care for this episode. It really smacked of Kyle West trying too hard to be nasty just for the sake of it, every other line a callous bit of name calling or violent rebuke; plus there’s an unhealthy waft of almost sensationalist sexism running through this piece that made me feel a tad uncomfortable - and genuinely it takes a fair bit to make me squirm as a viewer or reader, a key example being West’s direction citing a girl as a ‘Skinny Bitch’ as her character description. Sure, West wants to create a picture of a lawless, vicious broken down society, but this skirts that fine edge of intentionally trying to be provocative.
Not much really happens either, that much I noticed. Jason turns his nose up at some food, gets sent on a mission, but we cut away before that mission properly kicks off with a fairly limp cliffhanger. West in fairness is attempting to touch on a few issues here - the out of date food is something that likely would be eaten, and hoarding would take place by those who could do so; the actual supply run is a good hook for a webisode, I just wish more time would have been spent getting into that than Rover boasting about his nob. Another problem Stay Away From England has - beyond a barely developed lead who seems to have no objective whatsoever - is that Rover is being portrayed as such a bastard, it’s serving to justify Jason’s abhorrent actions we saw at the beginning, when surely there should be a few more shades of grey. Everything feels a little too black & white right now.
Not for me, ‘Eyes Off’. A little bit too unnecessarily vicious, sensationalist and provocative; quite well written, West layering his characters with colourful dialogue, and there are constant hints of the better show lurking under the surface, but we haven’t got there just yet.
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Tony O'Black
Evolution Participants
Writer. Reader. Lover. Chicken, mostly.
Posts: 60
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Post by Tony O'Black on Mar 4, 2013 20:44:11 GMT
1x05 - Supermarket Sweep
We get right into the mission the previous webisode left us dangling with here, ‘Supermarket Sweep’ (yet no sign of Dale Winton) pushing Jason and his unlucky cohort Bobby right into the thick of the raid - and Kyle West, in fairness, keeps his plot moving fast and punchy. This one definitely cemented in my mind, however, just how rushed Stay Away From England has been across the board - eschewing a far more interesting layer of drama to deliver the swift brutality that lies at the show’s heart. This one moves like lightning, but maybe - dare I say it - goes just a little too fast.
A good example is Antonio Sampson - he’s talked up in the previous tale as being quite a nasty, scary piece of work, but Jason knifes him in the throat after a smidgen of banter. Sure we do get the punch of shooting Bobby, and I imagine West’s plan was to undercut the threat of Sampson so Jason’s real soldier skills could be shown, but it’s all too... quick. Too easy, even with the loss of Bobby. At least Rover is remaining a consistently unsympathetic bastard, and I’m now starting to warm to that very clear cut portrayal, but his reasons felt a little inconsistent regarding Alice - to Jason she’s indispensable, yet he’s here quite happy to let her go. His execution of Bobby redeems that, leading into both the finale AND premiere - unusually - quite well, even if I’m not convinced Jason had enough time to really care about Bobby enough to risk death here.
I’ll be curious to see where the final part of this sequence goes now, given we know the outcome.
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Tony O'Black
Evolution Participants
Writer. Reader. Lover. Chicken, mostly.
Posts: 60
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Post by Tony O'Black on Mar 5, 2013 20:59:45 GMT
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Post by Kyle West on Mar 18, 2013 19:33:46 GMT
Heck of a review, Tony, and one I'm very thankful for. I'll certainly take a 3/5, considering the tough rating system you use! Lots to take onboard, and I'd be here for a year if I tried to respond to everything you wrote, but two or three things which I will address: 1) Jason - not often I get told my lead male isn't developed enough, particularly due to the Sebastian Knight character. I dunno, in many ways I am sometimes conscious of trying to make sure characters like Jason and co. don't fall into any Sebastian-like moments, which I guess actually silences my writing voice a little. Jason was always designed to be more of an observer here though, so in a sense I'm glad that came across, but at the same time am obviously disappointed that in your opinion is was too detached. We'll learn more about him in the future though 2) The "sensationalist sexism" in the forth episode - just a commentary on what the world is like in this show, and trying to make that bleed through in the actual words. I wouldn't call anything in that episode sexist, personally, just outright honest about what some women's roles are in Rover's world. Calling one character "Skinny Bitch" wasn't an attempt to be provocative by any means, simply continuing to show the world through the eyes of those we are seeing it, in this instance, a bunch of male gangsters who ain't got a whole lot of respect for their women. The same approach was taken with Alice too, which the way she's presented in the description in scenes with Jason to be far different to how she was presented in scenes that featured Rover too (for the most part). I'll be honest, I didn't see any need to shy away from being brutal with the assessment of women's position in Rover's world, when I wasn't taking the same precautions when showing/alluding child rape and such. Sorry you felt that way though, and not 100% sure I've properly explained myself in this paragraph! 3) The format - This was originally intended as a 2 part mini-series, which all of Volume 1 being the first part. It's since evolved a lot since those early development stages. What I will say though, is that said evolution means we are really going to get to see more of this world, and certainly more than I'd originally intended. This show is going to be a slow burner, and may annoy people as such, but by the time it wraps there ain't no way people will feel it left its world unexplored Many thanks for reading, Tony. Those reviews were very insightful, perhaps more so than the scripts themselves deserved!
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Post by Andrew on Mar 19, 2013 2:35:59 GMT
Okay, well I checked it out tonight in one shot and I must say that the reason I did it in one sweep is because I really enjoyed it. Sorry that I'm not going to point out any technical flaws or anything else because I don't review that way...BUT... I really enjoyed how the show opened. I like how tv shows and movies do that sometimes. It may not work all the times but I think it DID here. The good... The characters are quite likable and believable and people that you want to know more about. You also get a picture of a world that isn't zombie infected (at least right now...lol) You just have a world that is messed up beyond recognition and it carries a little bit of the twisted world of Darken House, except we're outside!! Jason seems like a strong character that has a bit of a secret life that he is hiding and after reading the finale of sequence one, there are others that know something about him. I really felt that in the episode with the five year old boy that he was going to do something BUT...(Spoiler removed)...I now understand why things happen but still (cough) something (wink). The Bad... The only bad thing I have (actually two)...One word and only one - Bobby! Wow. What can I say to my utter shock!?!? I don't want to spoil it for anyone else so I will just say that one word on that (wink). The other thing that bothered me was that Jason should have been... the one to KILL Bruiser. Man he deserved that opportunity!!! The Ugly... The fact that the sequence is over in one shot! This is my argument with releasing all at once. I know that you're keen on this but your episodes were built up enough that I would wait a few more days to read it. I mean, if I had to wait I would have come back. Now I have to wait for Sequence Two. I'm hoping for yet another GREAT SEQUENCE!!! My Rating: 8/10 - Great Job!!
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Post by Kyle West on Apr 8, 2013 16:33:37 GMT
Okay, well I checked it out tonight in one shot and I must say that the reason I did it in one sweep is because I really enjoyed it. Great start to your feedback The mystery as to how the Dragon knew about Jason will be a big focus coming up, though not necessarily in the next volume. Glad you're liking Jason and co so far, particularly as recent reviews such as Tony's picked him out as a weak link. Guess it's all just a matter of opinion I think he would have got involved, but for Bobby stopping him. I think that was one of the moments that really tested Jason's morals though, and played a part in his behaviour later on. I had Bobby's fate planned from around the moment I started making notes on the shows premise. Glad it worked for most readers, yourself included [/spoiler] I always think back to Season 2 of 24, when Jack isn't the one to kill the big bad. Yes, it's annoying as hell sometimes if the lead doesn't get the kill of the villain(s), but the end result is the same, isn't it...a dead bad guy. And my counter argument is that you read this months after it was released, so my release pattern wouldn't have made the slightest difference to how you digested this one Great rating, and thanks! Sequence 2 is not all that far away...
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